EP 109 & 110: Linking The Enneagram and Parenting with Enneagram Coach, Jackie

So, Jackie, hello, welcome. Good morning. I'm so glad you're here. How, how are you doing today? 

Oh, I am so good. Good morning. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad we get to do this. It's nice to see you again.

I know. I know. And you look so cute. 

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm literally sitting, I'm sitting on the floor of my living room as you can tell from the mountain of pillows behind me. I was just, today's the day that I do this in my living room. I'm just going to go for it. I'm just going to go for it. I literally just going to go for it. That's how my day is going. Thank you for asking. How's yours?

Something that I think that is often overlooked in the world of podcasting is truly how unglamorous it is. 

It is ugly. If you scroll on TikTok for two seconds and you think you're on podcast talk, you're not, you're on, you're on podcast talk that was specifically scripted and recorded to be repurposed for TikTok because it is unglamorous. Nobody wears pants when they podcast. That's number 1. 

Oh, no, no, absolutely not. I have not showered yet today and I have exercised outside and so like Lord knows, I don't smell good. My hair like it shows that I exercised outside and have not yet showered. We'll just put it that way. 

The curls are lovely, by the way. 

Oh, thank you. Thank you. This is this morning before outside. So yes.  

Get out. Is it that curly from just exercising? Ok. Well, number one, do you live in the swamp? And number two drop that routine for me, please. 

Right. Right. Ok. I can do both. Don't live in the swamp, but actually pretty much do because we're in Houston and it's just humid as all get out even though it is October, it's still humid as all get out. And yeah. I'll, I'll send you some of my exercise stuff. Girls. 

This is girls supporting girls. This is the peak.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Ok. So as much as I would love to just literally sit here and chit-chat and we should do more of this honestly. 

Yeah, this is fun filling a cup. I didn't know it was empty. God, 

I know. I know. Ok. So tell us just a little bit about you how you found the Enneagram and of course about your business. 

Oh, my Gosh. Yes. Ok. So, my name is Jackie. I live a stone's throw or a bike ride if you can ride a bike away from New York City. So I'm in New Jersey. I have been coaching for about five years and it is truly my passion. I legitimately love people.

I got into the Enneagram years ago because I was working for a nonprofit and I feel like a lot of people start their journey this way. But I was working for a nonprofit in which, you know, if, if, if you're working for, I think any entity bigger than yourself and you don't really know yourself at a core level. It, it's a little bit jarring. So you, you know, you make that into a nonprofit, you make that into like a workplace where like friends are like family and it just gets messier and messier, right? And it's all based on what you got going on inside. 

So long story short, burnt the heck out. And didn't know who I was, what to say, how to speak up for myself. Couldn't even really place where the burnout was coming from where the pain needed to go. None of that. No language, no semblance, nothing. I just, you know, I found myself asking, is there more or is this all there is like, is this it for me constantly?

I had a friend talk to me about looking into personality study. And when I looked into the Enneagram. I, well, I took an online test first because that's how you start everything. Right. Like BuzzFeed, What pasta are you? Yeah, exactly. Rotini if anyone was wondering. But I started taking a test online and I had first typed as, an Enneagram eight and that's the challenger. And I was like, ok, that doesn't sound like me. 

And then I typed as a six and I was like, that doesn't sound like me either. And I, I picked up some literature. I don't, I, I don't remember what book I had started with, but I, I picked up some literature and when I read the, the information about my Enneagram type and for those who don't know, it's your core motivations, your core fears. It's, it's the why behind the who? Right. And when I read that, I put it down and I didn't touch the whole system for like six months. 

I felt so naked. I felt like I, I remember, I always make this joke. I, I remember telling myself like I was hiding this from me. How did they know? You know, I, I just didn't want to know this about myself. So that's really how I got started into the Enneagram was, it was a personal thing. I never thought I was going to do anything with it. 

Eventually, I wanted to life coach. I wanted to meet people where they were and bring them where they wanted to go and I realized I could not do that if I didn't know them and if they didn't know them. And that was just the biggest when I saw there was like, oh, I was like, it was like the two like life coaching and the Enneagram coming together was magical because I was like, you know what, before anything, here's some language have some language that describes your who, what, why, where, how and then tell me, you know, my, my favorite question is what are your goals? 

And then after we go over the type, like have any of those goals actually changed because now we know something about ourselves. We didn't know before. And a lot of times they're like, yeah, I have completely different goals or, well, I think there's a step zero before. 

So it's been really, really like sustainable in a word, but it's just, it's been one of the most incredible tools. And that is the long story short about, about me and how I got into all this. 

I love that. I love that. So the Enneagram is something that the Think Happy community is, is pretty familiar with. That is one of the reasons why you're here because I think this is maybe the third. No, actually because I did the Enneagram series. This is maybe 1 2 3 4, like the fifth episode to air and yours will be the 5th and 6th because it'll be broken up into part one and part two about the enneagram. 

Yes. So I don't think that we need to do a full-blown deep dive into each type, but I do think it would be helpful to start maybe with like a high-level overview of each. And then maybe also like as another starting point, maybe like going into like some common Enneagram like words or lingo or something like that, like and triads and stuff like that. 

That sounds great. Yeah. So here's a quick overview and, and so you're probably familiar with this because it's surface level and we know that when we hear these statements, we can type ourselves or we can excuse me, type ourselves quote unquote into like five or six of the types, right? Because you're like, well, I, I do that, I can see myself, I describe myself that way, right? 

So high-level surface level, so we'll start with one through nine. Type one is called the perfectionist or the reformer. I'm gonna say multiple nicknames probably for each type. It's gonna depend on the subtype for me. That's how I do it. But it's called the perfectionist or the reformer. 

They're very, very ethical, they're very, very principled. They are detailed, they are incredibly organized, even if it's not on their desk, it's in their head, they are organized, they've got it all down, they don't want to miss a thing and they feel that they have a right and an obligation to change their world, to change society, to change their lives, to change the people around them. And it is a right and an obligation like these are very, very real black-and-white factors. 

Type two is called the helper or the giver again, depends on the subtype. and they are warm, they are interpersonal, they are sweet, they are the person that is not going to leave your dinner party unless they've offered to help with the dishes. If you say no, they're going to stand next to you and keep conversation with you while you do the dishes. 

That is how they are. they, they're truly like Mr Rogers’s version of helpers. And you know, some of the, the muddiness there is that as anyone they can lose themselves in their helping and their giving and that's where the problems begin. 

Type three is called the achiever or the performer. I, oh, excuse me, I love working with type threes because they always want to win at coaching. I'm like, there's no winning here. Like there's no, there's literally like they're like, am I doing good? Am I winning? I'm like, there's no winning here. 

That is so hilarious because I'm a three and I'm like, oh yeah, that sounds about right.

Is it really, why do I think you were a one? 

Probably because I'm insanely organized also. 

Did you think that you were one in the beginning?

No. At first, I thought I was a seven. Then I thought I was an eight and then I thought I was a three and that's where I am right now. 

No, I got it. Ok. For some reason I thought in my head, I was like, oh, she thought she was or she thought she was a three and then she's one, I don't know, I made that up. I made, I made, I made up a story guys. 

We all do it. 

So I I'm not going to comment on your work out here. But usually, every time I see a three they are put together dressed to kill, they're incredibly charming. They're so forward. especially about who they are or who they want to be perceived as people. They are go-getters. They are the CEO S, they are machines. They are truly like machines.

I know a lot of people nickname the one the machine. I like to nickname the three, the machine because holy Smokes. 

Type four is called the individualist or some people say the tortured artist. I, I'm trying to find that secondary nickname for the four that I feel like speaks to the other subtypes because I just don't want everyone to feel like, oh great. I'm John Mayer. You know what I mean? But the type, some people have emotions and feel emotions, you know, and their feelings. 

Type four typically are like, they just are emotions and feelings and all that. They have a huge depth for capacity of emotions and feelings and they want to feel special because they believe that they are special. And so they are in search for authenticity, for that search for, for being special, for being themselves, for living their lives as themselves making that mark. 

Type fives are called the theorist or the observer. I think observer is a little bit more literal, but I think theorist is kind of where the hidden this comes from. They are like 100% cerebral. I'm gonna, I'll give it 99 they're like 99% cerebral. They are really like, they're really in their heads. 

They love to gather information and knowledge and while it is difficult for them to do something with it, they use it to assess their energy levels throughout the world. They use it to assess their interactions. They use it to, to make connections with people. They use it to feel safe knowledge and information. 

Type six is called the loyalist or the Guardian. I like guardian. Some people will often nickname six the contrarian, which I, I don't typically do. I like to like stick that one on the eight. But I like the loyalist or the guardian for the type six. And I like guardian because they really are like the guardian for what they believe is the rules. What's going to keep everybody in their community safe. 

They're the type of people, some of my favorite people, they, the best way to describe it is they tend to live in code yellow, like all the time. and so they're kind of the friend that's like, oh, I'm just worried about this or I'm just concerned that this, like, if you feel like you have to maybe prepare a monologue to, like, go tell your friends some news about your life, but you really genuinely trust them, you trust their feedback, you know that they ring the alarm because they love the people around them and that's where their skepticism comes from. 

They are incredibly loyal. They are like lighthouses for their people right there, like a, a gathering post for their people. I love Sixes. They're so truly special. But their skepticism can really get in the way or their worry, their contingency thinking can really get in the way. 

Type seven is called the enthusiast or the epicure, which I'm still coming to terms with that. With that one, I'm very particular about the nicknames. But the enthusiast is just the Peter Pan of the Enneagram. They are fun, they want to have fun, they want to do what's next. They want to have adventure. They are also, you know, sometimes nicknamed the Adventurer. 

They wanna, you want to go to Disneyland at 1 a.m. let's do it. You want to go to Olive Garden on a whim, let's just do it. Let's go for a drive. Let's do this, let's do that. Let's have it all. Have fun and sometimes, you know, we, we yes to death ourselves. But in reality sevens are constantly in search of what's next because if we stay in the same spot for too long, that could get real dicey, we could get stuck here and that's not fun. So let's move on. Let's move forward. 

Type eight is often called the challenger or sometimes the contrarian and they really, they have a need to be against and being against, helps them feel safe, helps them feel. I'll say this, you know, like in the movies, the big guy named Tiny. Yeah, that's the challenger. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's like, it's, it's, it's not necessarily, I need to come off. Challengers don't need to come off as strong. They need to come off as not weak, period, right?

So sometimes that looks like challenging, sometimes that looks like coming off as a threat, but that looks like being incredibly bold, sometimes intimidating, very direct, sometimes aggressive, what people would consider to be controlling to everybody because if I put all of it at face value, I'm going to weed out what's not supposed to be here if I challenge what's here. 

I think a lot of eights get a really bad rap and it's funny because like if I meet with people or I talk to people who already know their enneagram type and it's an eight, I'll be like, oh, what's your type? And they're like, I’m an eight, like, almost like, kind of like, and I'm like, oh, man, like, yeah, like, you know, and I heard this on a podcast once someone had said, like, oh, I met, I met an eight who was just so unhealthy who was so unhealthy and then the other person was like, maybe they were just like an eight and you didn't stand up for yourself. You know what I mean? And I was like, dang, that's facts actually. Yeah, I love the eights. They're incredible, incredible people 

Type nine. They are called the referee or the peacemaker. I think a lot of people are really familiar with the peacemaker, but they really do their best in a nutshell to stay away from conflict and that can be relative, right? It can be internal conflict, it can be external conflict, it could be tension, it could just be something being a little bit rocky, that's all relative to the person, but they'll do what they need to do to meld with others to kind of go with the flow, go along to get along, to not rock the boat to not create conflict and to just have peace in their lives, we know that avoiding things doesn't, doesn't ever lead to peace. But, but we try and so that's the nine types in a nutshell. 

To get into some of the hot words, like, I think some of my favorites are, you know, wings, right? Like, think of a bird. a bird has its body and it's got wings on both sides and they even it out, they help it fly, it can fly with one flies better with both. Could walk if it has none but has wings. 

And that is how we look at Agram types. So the Enneagram is in a, in a circular pattern like a clock with nine at the top. And so if we look at your type three, we would look at the the numbers on the quote-unquote clock next to it to see what your wings are. So if your body is three, if your main type is three, your wings would be two or four or two and four. And so that's what a wing is. 

And so a lot of times it'll be like, oh, I'm a, I'm a four wing seven and I'm like, no, the f you are not work. No, no, you're absolutely not that But thank you so much for playing the game play again. There's honestly, there are subtypes, I think I had mentioned that a little bit earlier just talking about the nicknames, subtypes are actually like a psychological, biological, instinctual variant that we all have. 

The three subtypes that everybody has are and people can have them and stack them in combination, but they really have one that they kind of relate to the most. And it's either self preservation, the social one or or sexual or 1 to 1, right? Or intimate. And so self, it really self preservation just basically says my priority is protecting myself as a biological standpoint from a like as this is how I see survival as protecting me, how I see how the social person sees survival is all of us. It's all of us, right?

All of us and how the intimate person sees survival is. It's you and me, it's the person in front of me. And so every single one of these can be in the enneagram type. So as a type two myself, I have friends that are also in Enneagram two and I'm like we do not look alike at all. Completely different subtypes. 

I have a friend who's a self-preservation two and I'm an intimate two. Very, very, very different people, very different hows very different whys even sometimes. But our core still the same and we're both that two and that's not going to change and same with the wing, your wing. If you borrow from the two, if you, for example, if you borrow inspiration from two or if you borrow inspiration from four as a three, you don't change, you're still three, you're just three with a little spice or three with a little sugar Right. 

You know how you want to see that. Yeah. I think some of the other ones are kind of like triads, like you had said. And I think triads can be a little dicey because there's actually like a lot of groups of three within the enneagram. One of them that I think a lot of people label as the triad is the center of intelligence, which is like, are you a head person? Are you a heart person or are you a gut or instinct person?

And essentially every three enneagram types goes into one of the centers of intelligence. And that's really what it is. So types 2 3 and 4 are in the heart. 5 6 and 7 are in the head and 8 9 and 1 are in the body and they feel things instinctually, but there's, you know, other, there's other groups of three, right? There is interpersonal groups, there's conflict styles, there's relational styles and that's where you start to see some of the different enneagram types have a lot in common with each other. 

So for example, I believe it's, I think it's relational style or conflict style. I have to, I'll have to like really look into it once more, but two and five have so much in common because how of how they withdraw into their hurts and I would never really like on paper, they don't have anything in common, right? 

So I think looking into the different triads of the enneagram helps to narrow it down so much more. And those are some of the hot words I can think of if you can think of any more throw them out.

No, no. I mean, you just gave us so much information in such a short period of time and I love it. Like that was, that was so like I'm very impressed with you right now. 

Oh my God, thank you. Kiss me on the lips. Holy 

Yes. OK. So we have done the high-level overview. So we're all on the same page now, right? So let's kind of like, I guess niche this conversation down a little bit more and dig into how our engram types play into maybe how we mother and in our parenting decisions. And so I'll give you an example kind of like from my own personal life. 

So when, when I was pregnant with my oldest I or actually OK, let me back up and say becoming a mom brought out a different side of my personality that I didn't that like I wasn't familiar with before I had Children. And so by nature, I'm like super structured, I love routine. I love having a game plan. Flexibility is tough for me. And like something that I'm always having to work at getting better at. And so because of that, I kind of thought I would be an inflexible parent if that makes sense. 

Like I thought I would always want to be in control and I thought I would just, like, always need the house quiet when I like. 

How you do one thing is how you're going to do everything. 

Exactly. Like I thought I was going to have all these rules and be kind of strict and, like, maybe not strict with the kids but, like, strict with the rules. I don't know. But when I actually became a mom, I learned that I was a lot different than that. And like, yes, my kids like have sleeping schedules and like that is very structured. But aside from that, I feel like I'm a lot more flexible than I ever ever would have thought that I would be like, literally when someone babysits them. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. Like here's your road map. Like the route you take to get there. I don't care.

Like you're the mom now. Come on.

Like I'm paying you like, I'm passing you the baton and like, have fun. Keep them alive. Their bad time. Is this awesome? Good luck. That's people. So like knowing that I'm a three and I do lean into like both wings, I would say. Does, does that make sense? 

My favorite question of all time is, does that make sense? Because people will literally tell? But like, I have a question and they'll tell me a story and they're like, does that make sense? Like, that's literally my favorite question. Yeah, it does. It sure does. And like, as you know, you, you mentioned that you thought that you were a one from the beginning and you, I think you made peace with those parts of yourself because here's the thing, not everything about you is three. 

Yeah, like not everything that you do is I know plenty of threes who are incredibly uptight, anal and disorganized tons, tons, tons, tons, right? And so like, yeah, it does make sense and I think for you to be able to, I'm going to use the B word boundary for you to be able to put that kind of boundary for yourself to say. Here's what I do, here's what I don't like. Here's what I'm strict on because it matters, here's what I'm not strict on because it doesn't matter.

Also kind of points to me that when you have a duty to do, you're able to see it in a little bit more of a black-and-white kind of way, but maybe internally for yourself, like maybe you're not strict with yourself. That sounds like more of a you're attempting to be disciplined. So it makes sense to me that doesn't translate necessarily into like how you raise the kids, how your mom, maybe even how you would be as like a wife or a partner or whatever. That just, it sounds like to me like, you know, yourself and you are applying it where it matters or where you feel that it matters.

I guess that sense that actually does, that resonates a lot because I, I feel like I realized pretty early on that, like I wouldn't have the capacity in the bandwidth to be like super, super strict. So it's like I picked a couple of things and I didn't even know I was doing this. Like I'm just thinking back right now as we’re talking. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I picked a couple of things and I was like, ok, like those are going to be the core like that's where we're going to build everything off of like sleeping schedules. And I mean, just that's like the one that's coming to my mind right now. That's really interesting. 

So, ok, so we're not here just to talk about me. 

So we can if you want though.

Hold on with you about mine. But ok, can we go maybe like type by type or like by however you wanna like divvy them up? But can you maybe give us now like a high-level overview about maybe certain parenting traits that we might experience like based off of type or however you want to dive into it? 

You're all gonna hate me. Yes, I can. So here's, here's the thing is and the reason that I, what gives me the right to say this is I'm not a parent yet and I am around so many Children at all times. I am a glorified, I have no like biological siblings and I am the most glorified auntie ever. Ok. So I say this to say when I interact with kids, 

I know I love being I being Aunt Jackie like yesterday, sorry, I have to just sidebar yesterday. I went to go see my niece my fiance's niece. So my niece cheering and I was like, I was like, oh my God, I'm the hot aunt at the game. Heck yeah, I was like, yeah, girl, I was literally the hot aunt watching her cheer. But I will say so I'll say this about myself and all of the moms will scream amen into my face and I know it. So the biggest problems that I am presented with when I am with Children are problems that have always already existed in my life or they wouldn't be problems. 

It's kind of like you know, I, I often say this to people like what, what's the phrase what I see in you exists in me? Or else I wouldn't know what it was, right? And so when you're when you get agitated by somebody or annoyed by somebody, I'm like what, what you see in them exists in you or else you wouldn't be able to call it out, right? You wouldn't be able to say.

It’s like a mirror.

Exactly. Thank you. And so with the enneagram, I could sit here and, and I, and I kind of, you'd like, go through different, like, parenting traits of each of the types and things like that. But I will say on a, on a grand horizon, like, kind of level, the things that you are presented with. It's like, it's like when you get married, it's like your problems just have a magnifying glass and then suddenly you have kids and it's under a microscope. 

And I, so I don't want to keep throwing out the word problem, but tendencies any bends that you have, if you have a bend to have a lack of discipline in your own personal life, right? If you, if you say I don't, I don't really care, kind of whatever, go with the flow, do whatever you want, kind of thing, right? Where, where it matters. Yeah, you might find yourself incredibly overwhelmed because kids demand structure through chaos. 

Right. Right. So I say that to say things that have always existed in your life will continue to exist and you're going to find your strengths will be your parenting strengths and some of your setbacks will be the places that you struggle to adjust to parenthood. Right. On a, on a very, very broad level. So it's not one of the things I love about the enneagram is I can talk to anyone in any stage, any age about it because it always applies. Right? And so does that spark any more questions or would you like me to go into each of the types and some of their parents? 

No, no. So like I guess I'll just keep on with this like sleep schedule example that, that I've been using because in my own life, like I am super structured about my sleep like it is a priority for me. And it has been like since really since I was in high school because I had 6 a.m. swim practice every day. And so sleep was always super important to me. And so that's just so I had never put those two together that like, oh sleep is very important to me in my life. So it's going to show up as a very important thing for when I parent. 

And so now I'm wondering so like maybe the investigator, are they like hyper researching, things like car seats and books and like there like the hyper researching, you know, stuff like that, that's all how it plays together. 

Yeah. So exactly. So like someone like the investigator, the observer, the theorist, however you want to nickname it, right? Like they're going to do what they do but in terms of whatever they've got in front of them, same with twos, they're going to like maybe they're gonna like put extra time and love into the nursery and the blankets and the details and all that, those little things to make baby feel welcome. But also keep in mind too like we don't when we're stressed, when we're, we are human first like before because I want to erase some mom guilt and shame like we're, you're human first. 

You don't get to choose that. Neither does your child and your child is human first before their child. They don't get to choose that. Like none of that. No, like we're all just so we don't always get to choose how we feel and how we react no matter what the age or requirement is for the person in front of us. So I set to say in terms of the investigator, right? The five. if, if you are completely like if you feel depleted and at limit and your child comes up to you and wants to build a fort or wants a, I want a big girl room and you know, it's gonna require you to do some research or some emotional time or effort or whatever like you will, you may withdraw the same whether it's if, if it was a partner or a coworker or a friend or some like a family member or your sister or someone you didn't really care to fight with and we know this from the different places our parents have hurt us. You're gonna hurt your kids, it's gonna happen, but they hurt us out of their own tendencies and their own pain, usually not ours, right? 

So yeah, like I actually that's like very insightful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So to answer your question, I think like there are some things that still check out, right? I think any gram sevens are really, really fun, spontaneous, energetic, physically active parents. A lot of ones are really structured and open and loving. Like a lot of twos are very much like let's just spend quality time. I want to understand you, you know, so who you are as an Enneagram type is going to show up in, in how you are as a parent. That's the good news. The bad news is who you are and your enneagram type is going to show up and how you parent, right? 

Ok. So I'm trying to think of like the best way to phrase this question because it's kind of in the same vein, but it's like goes along with like co-parenting with like your spouse or a partner, how like do specific and it could be literally the same answer that you just gave me to the parenting traits. But like do specific traits come out of us based off of types like when we are co-parenting or like doing anything as a partner with someone else?

I'll say when you're, when you're relating to people, you're going to have things that make you feel comfort, they're going to have things that make you feel triggered. Right? So if you think of your spouse or the person you're co-parenting with that is probably your experience amidst the triggers and amidst the, ok, cool. We're on the same page. You're still dealing with your own crap. And so that, that's really what it is because all you're doing is adding a child to the mix. 

And if you think about parenting, parenting is just the combination of the decisions that you decide for your child's life plus who you are as a person. So all that really means is it's also the decisions that your partner or co-parent has chosen with you for your child's life plus who they are as a person. So certain tendencies are going to come out, but it's going to depend on those relationships. 

So I'll say my parents, my parents split when I was two and they were divorced, they co-parented pretty well when they didn't have to be friends, their personalities inherently would not get along in certain areas. I can sit here and speculate all freaking day. But the truth is, I, I can see exactly where they don't but when they would, when they would talk about parenting me, and all that stuff. Oh, easy peasy. Easy peasy lemon squeezy would have never felt the conflict between the two of them. 

And so it really just, it, I hate to use this word because it's so, like, overused but it really is such an out overflow like, right? But like it's an overflow of what's already there. The same way if we're stressed about work and we come home and we scream at everybody. It is the overflow of what's there. Parenting, relationships, co-parenting is all the same. And that's why my favorite thing to tell people is the enneagram is not for anybody else except you like, and it's allowed to be for your husband, but only just for him separately.

And we are both ready to bring it together because it, it has to be its own, separate endeavor. It has to be its own thing because every situation that you face in this life, even if you think there are problems in a relationship, 1 to 1, they might be your problems, right? They might be your problems and you, you have to be able to take responsibility to see it, especially if you are guiding the next generation and co-guiding the next generation with someone. You both have to, to know yourselves. Right. So I love to tell people the Enneagram is just for you, it's just for you. 

You know, it kind of makes me think of, you know how they say. The only person you ever truly have control over is yourself. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And like you can know someone like the back of your hand, but they're the ones that have control over themselves. 

Like, no, it's true. And, and like you can, you can only know what somebody presents to you. Right? But at the end of the day they're their own. And so am I right? I'll speak for myself. I'm my own mess of emotions, problems, things, I'm still hiding from myself, my own fears, I'm my own mess of stuff. So if I, if I agree to be in relationship to be a parent, to do all of these different things, I have to deal with my own stuff. So it doesn't leak out everywhere. And I think that there's problems everywhere. 

Or worse, like I think that's where mom guilt comes from. I feel like mom guilt comes from looking to the left, looking to the right going. There is a way to raise Children. There is a way to do it because Susie freaking down the street did it. And if I don't do it like her, I'm a bad mom and I'm gonna go ahead and counter that there's no such thing as a bad mom except some exceptions, which we probably read about in the news. 

But I think to be honest, the closer definition to someone who's not being a good mom or is not being authentic to themselves as a mom is someone who doesn't want to parent their Children based on themselves. Like, if you, you, you made this child half you, this childs half you speak your own l like, speak to this child through who you are as a person. They're going to understand you. They know you deeply and innately and same with that you're the co-parent. 

I want to refrain from saying like your husband or partner or whatever, but the, the coparent, right? It's the same like when you are authentic and your kids know nothing. All they know is that they're allowed to be themselves. And that is the game changer. That is where life starts for kids, man, you know. 

Yeah. And you know, to your point, a couple of things that I really like that you said, first of all is, you know, where mom guilt stems from. Second thing is that there's no such thing as a bad mom. And I think that if you are feeling mom guilt that even shows you more that you are a great mom because if you're feeling mom guilt, essentially what that is, is you wanting to do better, you wanting to do more. 

And you know, we look to the left and we look to the right. We pull out our phone, we like, see everyone's highlight reel, we like, see beautifully put together moms and, in carpool line and at the grocery store and seemingly doing all of the things and juggling it all perfectly. But no one freaking is, literally no one is I was telling a girlfriend the other day who was helping her with her baby registry and she was like, ok, so asking for advice and, you know, stuff like that. And I was like, honestly the biggest piece of advice I can tell you is you're never going to know what you're doing. 

Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing. I have two of these humans and I still don't know what the heck I'm doing. 

Literally. Like I, I think maybe it's maybe it's my ignorance as someone who isn't a parent but has a place in a lot of villages, right? So perhaps I'm being ignorant. 

Oh, I love the way you said that. 

Oh, thank you. The other, the other, the nonsexy way of saying that I'm a weird piece of furniture in everyone's lives. But so, but please forgive me if this is ignorant. But I, I like to remove the word parent and revise it with the word guide or mentor. Because if you tell yourself that the only way to like if you had someone, like if you were a professor and you had a student that was some was your mentee, right? Or was someone that you wanted to guide? You know, they're relying on you, you know that they're coming to you because of your expertise because of who you know, because of your reliability, all that. 

So you be you and you wake up every day and you decide this person comes to me and brings me a dilemma. This, this four-year-old brings me a dilemma and I can solve it for them. I can yell at, yell at them about it. I can do all I can do all of these different things. I don't know what's right. I don't know what's wrong or I can guide them and that's it. And like take the word parent out. All you're doing is like, like, and this is, this is my view of parenthood.

You, you gave birth to this person to be number one, this beautiful representation of the love that you have with another person. But also on the other side of it to be their own person. Period. All you got to do is guide them to do that and you can't guide them to do that. If you won't look at you, if you like the biggest thing that parents do that they don't realize is their nonverbal permission or lack thereof. And we learn it from them. We learned how to pick our bodies apart by watching our moms and our aunts do the same thing they gave us permission to do that. Right. 

And so when you are yourself, when you get to know yourself, the ugly parts, the good parts when you spend a few minutes with the ugly parts of yourself and you try to get to know her, you're giving your child permission to see all of the different sides of who they are as a person to be who they are to experience who they are and you get to guide them as themselves because the gift back that you get is that your child is themselves and you're not just trying to, how do I do this with a kid? You get to look at Brian and little Brian and go. Brian has shown me who he is, what he loves, what his personality is because I've shown him who I am and so he's gotten to be himself and I can actually raise the child I have not just a child because I think those who are consumed with mom guilt really take, have taken a step back from the individuality of their child because if you stone back in, even for one second on the individuality of your child, you'll know what to do. You know what to do, you always know what to do. 

Right. Right. Oh, that's good stuff. That's really good stuff. 

And I'm not a mom. So I'm so sorry if this causes anybody to hate me, you're allowed to hate me. My DM’s are open, please just don't come for Kaitlin about it. 

That's so funny. So, ok, you brought up, you know, you have a spot in many villages. So that makes me think based off of based off of a mom's type. How can we like, ask for support in the best, in the best way? 

So like, for example, like my husband's name is Oakley. Like, how do I get out of my own head? And this is such a loaded question and just like, ask for the support that I need instead of just like assuming that he has the running to-do list in his head like I do and like just innately knows what I need help with. 

Yeah. in like a non-rude way, like almost like get over yourself, right? Like get over it, right. This idea of like there is very much like this, there an overwhelmed analysis paralysis. Like there's, there's very much a lot of times in the life of like a woman, a mom where you just feel frozen and you're like overwhelmed and you're like, I need help. I don't know how to ask for help. I don't know, even if someone was like, what do you need help with? Wouldn't even know what to say first. So on and so forth. 

So I think it's, it's about a lot doing a lot of the work before you get to that place to understand the signs of when stuff is starting to weigh on you starting to crack, starting to do all that. But if you tangibly need help, something just comes up. I think it's really like, I'll, I'll speak to your type removing this idea of efficiency and deficiency from it all when you ask for help and being like, well, to be honest, the most efficient way to do things is for things to be done, period, period. 

So like, so if I have to get outside of myself, get away from my pride a little bit and almost pull off the mask that says I do have this all together. Like nobody thinks that you don't have it all to anybody. This is for everybody. Nobody thinks you don't have it together because you need help. And if somebody thought you had it together and it was squashed by the idea that you needed help, they thought you were God and your relationship was doomed from the beginning. Yeah, like honestly.

Are there certain like warning signs or trigger signs that you see in common? Like based off of types like do threes, like have some tall tale warning sign that like they're about to hit that tilt or, or something like that? 

Oh, yeah. To speak specifically to three is one thing that I notice is and it, it, it's funny because it's really similar to the eights, but it's a little bit more in action and it's denial when I see three starting to airbrush things. But then it, instead of really trying to be like, oh, it was supposed to be like, whatever, really living in the, like, living in denial and like, really pretending that things that have happened that contributed to, you know, the downfall, the blow up, the whatever aren't really there.

I think that's a huge thing when you start to try to, what's the, the forerunner of denial is like apologetics in a sense, right is like, oh, it's like, I'll defend it in this way, I'll defend it in this way. Like or I'll justify it, justification, right? Justifying it within yourself making it, it's not that bad, it's fine. This is winnable I can still achieve over this. I can still bla bla bla it's not as bad. I don't want people to see me this way, those kinds of things. when you start to justify, you're going to end up being in denial and it's going to get bad. 

So like that's, you know, one example for a three, I think with every agram type, it's like, it's, it is really relative like I I gave you a relative example. But there are yes, a lot of warning signs for each type, especially the, the more you study it, the more you get into like the little things like the wings, the center of intelligence, all the things that speak your language and define you a little bit more as you get into those things, you can start to see what your warning sign is. Right? 

My warning sign is the the I'm fine saga. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm, I'm a two, I'm a type two. I'm the helper. I'm the giver. If God God forbid I need somebody like, right. So my, my thing is I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm fine when I start asking myself, why did I just say that? That's how I know. I'm like, something's wrong, something's wrong, something's up. Something is bad. Something is bad. You know what I mean? That's how I know. So every, everybody it's going to be different and for every sign, for every sign, for every time it's gonna be different.

Do any other types have like, warning signs that just come to your head right now? 

Yeah. Eights. Another one is, is denial, but it's a little bit different. It's like, very much like denying the reality of what's happened and how it's happened and how things have come to be, other warning signs I mean, seven's jumping, right. And I like, oh, they like to develop to jump from one thing to the next if you find them actively changing their mind constantly, constantly. Like that's a, that is, I'm like, you are, whatever it is you are borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and you've got nothing to give Paul, we got to figure this out like, you know what I mean?

Fours. I'd say if you start, if you, if you feel like there's nothing going on and you start noticing yourself doing that push pull thing with people, That's a telltale sign that you feel something about yourself. All of these are signs that we feel something about ourselves or we feel, you know, like we all feel at times like deeply inadequate and things like that. So that's kind of the things that come off, off the top of my head. I can't think of anything else. 

Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely put you on the spot there. 

No, that's OK. 

Those are so helpful. I love a lot of those. Oh my gosh, this conversation.

I'm sorry, I get, I just threw so much. I.

No, that is what we are here for literally, that is what we're here for. And so now that I've asked you like 45 minutes worth of deep combo questions, I have a fun one for you as we start to wrap up. 

Hm.

Do you have a life or happiness hack that you use in your own life? That listeners might want to incorporate into their own lives. It could have to do with Enneagram could not have to do with Enneagram. 

Oh I do. I don't think this is like a hack but I think it, I think this, I think it matters. If you are a person that has grown out of people pleasing, this one especially for you, how people adopting this, this idea that how people feel about you, think about you or what they've said about you is none of your business. I, I said this to somebody the other day and I, you know, I feel it for myself and I try to adopt it because I, I find that when I, you know, when someone calls me and goes, Susie was talking about you, Susie is my favorite. Filler name by the way. So I'm so sorry to Susie, Susie. but you know, Susie was, you know, talking about you and Susie said you did Xy and Z for attention, for example, like I have to get good at being like, you know, thank you so much for telling me, I know you're going to know when to tell me things when they're detrimental. But like for the little small things, I'm recovering as people pleaser, how they feel about me is none of my business because if not, I'll spiral and I'll think about it for a really long time. 

So, yeah, that's been one of the most, the reason it came to my head I think is because it's so tangible is it's something that you can kind of, you can do damage control with that really quickly. Like you can say, like, you know, ok, I, I've kind of decided it's, it's like another version of a boundary but just this idea of like, ok, how someone feels about me is none of my business because they're not telling me they don't want to fix it. So, yeah, it's just none of my business. It's not my business till they come to me about it.

Now, there are exceptions. Make sure the people in your life know what those exceptions are because if someone is starting a rumor that you are, you know, cheating on your family, for example, that is 100% your business and you should go kill them. Like, yeah. But, but other than that, you know what I mean? Like just kind of this idea that, you know, in the small ways but the ways that matter which means they're not that small. It's none of my business. I gotta let, I just gotta let, let them deal with it. Like I, I can't drink their poison and be like they're gonna die soon. No, it's not happening. 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it all just kind of goes back to what we were talking about a couple of minutes ago and the only person you can ever truly control is yourself.

Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 

That's a good one. Ok. So where can we find you? Where could the listeners connect with you and hang out with you? 

Oh my God. Ok. I love this. OK, so my website is knowyourdamnself.com you can find me there or I'm on Instagram @tablefor9coaching it's for and the digit nine. You can, I love DM’s I take a little bit to respond to them, but I love DM’s I love like random questions if you got like a little question, come, come, come to me, come see me. Yeah, literally you know, send a raven carry your pigeon doesn't really matter but come find me. I'm happy to talk to everybody. 

So fun. Well, thank you. So, so so much for this conversation. Thank you for being just the best start to my Monday. Honestly. 

So thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it. Like, thank you for your time and I think that like you're just, you really, I, I don't remember if I mentioned this to you the last time we chatted, but I felt it when we were, we were just like doing our preliminary conversation. You're so like you have such a joy about you and I really appreciate that. Like this was a great start to my Monday. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. 

No, you hang up first. You hang up. Bye listeners. Bye, Susie.